Please Pray for Kevin Nash
Almost Laughable
by Lester Barrie
Hey everyone, I heard Kevin Nash say something very distrubing on his radio show this past Sunday. If I heard him correctly he is in serious need of prayer, because God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33). The following is my letter to Kevin. Let me know what you think:
Hey Kevin
Sunday I thought I heard you assert: There is no such thing as premarital sex because marriage occurs when two people have sex.
Kevin, please forgive me if I missed something before or after the time I was listening and I have you all wrong.
I pray that is the case.
I will reply to this false doctrine anyway and will post in my blog for public reaction.
I say it is “almost” laughable because there are too many women who desire Holy Matrimony being exploited sexually by men who can say this type of thing with a straight face.
I mean that with no disrespect toward you personally Kevin. Really. Lol.
Most compelling:
Joseph took Mary as his wife, but did not have sex with her until Jesus was born. Mat 1:24-25
If it were true that marriage only occurs when two people have sex,
a. Mary and Joseph were not married when Christ was born.
However, if the Bible is right:
a. Joseph took Mary as his wife.
b. Jesus was born.
c. Joseph had sex with Mary after the birth of Jesus.
IN THAT ORDER.
But if that is not enough, consider this.
1.Marriage is a covenant agreement.
2.Covenant: A solemn promise to engage in or refrain from a specified action. In religion covenants are made in alliance with God. (Wikipedia)
3.With covenant agreements there must be intent or promise to be joined as husband and wife.
4.God models covenant agreements between Groom and bride with His relationship with Israel. (Isaiah 54:5)
5. He also models covenant agreements between Groom and Bride with the relationship between Christ and the Church. (Mat 9:15)
6.Fornication is listed in scripture among the works of the flesh. (Galatians 5:19-21)
7.Fornication: Voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married. (Wikipedia)
8.Fornication is contrasted with self control in the list of the fruits of the spirit (Galatians 5:22)
9.When two people fornicate there is no “intent” to be married and no alliance with God.
Kevin, I hope this puts and dagger in the heart of this false teaching.
I would love to talk to you in person or on your show about Holy Matrimony.
Kevin I do comedy for a living, but my ministry is NO JOKE.
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Lester Barrie
Pastor: Perfecting Christian Fellowship.
Lester Barrie said:
Here is Kevin Nash’s reply to me on Facebook. So…I heard him correctly. As you can see, he was a pretty good sport about the whole thing.
From Kevin:
Hope you’re well; you heard correctly, I did not turn positions on the topic of “what is pre-marital sex?”
Using wikipedia as a reference to exegete scripture is a joke that would work well at the comedy union, but not when you’re teaching people to study and rightly dividing the word of truth.
I don’t mind discussing this topic with you further.
Allow me to address the 1st scripture thrown out of context and proper cultural perspective- Matt. 1:24-25.. Context means everything!! Begin at the 1st verse, it will explain and keep marriage (Jewish culture) in perspective. In regards to Jewish culture and law, to be betrothed or espoused was more than our simple engagement. While technically not marriage, there was a binding contract. “Betroth: To promise “by one’s truth.” Men and women were betrothed when they were engaged to be married. This usually took place a year or more before marriage. From the time of betrothal the woman was regarded as the lawful wife of the man to whom she was betrothed (Deuteronomy 28: 30; Judges 14: 2,8; Matthew 1: 18-21). On earth, (law) as it will be in heaven- not until consummation.
Why was it significant to Matthew to state that Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after she gave birth? He knew that the marriage was not complete until after consummation.
Consummation means-the point at which something is complete or finalized, the action of making a marriage or relationship complete by having sexual intercourse.
Sex is not only a physical act, it’s spiritual. Genesis 2:24 we read—For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. This is explained by Jesus in Matt. 19:5-6 and also Mark 10:8. This quote is also used by Paul in Eph. 5:31. Notice the Matthew statement. Matthew 19:5-6 5 and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.” Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
Now we go to Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 6:16–Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one body with her? For He says, “The two will become one flesh.” Thus the doctrine is complete that says sex makes you of one flesh and this one flesh joins the two by God and therefore only death will allow the other to be rightfully married to a different party.
I’ll get on covenant and fornication when we speak, getting tired of typing..
Good stuff, you gotta love to study.. I never won’t to eisegete scripture, it’s easy to do when we use the bible to fit our ideas and our way of life, that’s a no no…
Let’s talk soon,
Kevin
June 24th, 2009 at 3:59 am
Lester Barrie said:
Kevin…so…I heard you correctly. You really believe
A. Two people are bound in marriage after having sex.
B. There is no such thing as pre-marital sex.
First:
“Betrothed” I knew that. But your expository and scripture dumping offers no change to the “sequence of events” in the passage that you say I took out of context.
Here is the sequence.
Mary was espoused or betrothed to Joseph in verse 18-23. But in verse 24, Joseph “did as the Angel bidden him” and “took a wife.”
Mary and Joseph’s marital status changed in verse 24 from espoused to fully husband and wife.
Look at verse 24 Kevin. Something happened here. Something changed. Joseph “did” something. The scripture says he took Mary as his wife.
Mary was espoused to Joseph when the passage opened. But in verse 24 Joseph was raised from his sleep and “did” as the Angel of the Lord had bidden him to do and “took” a wife. “Took” is passed tense. That means it happened.
You want to be really careful Kevin suggesting that when Jesus was born Mary and Joseph were not fully and completely husband and wife.
Next:You asked
“Why was it significant for Matthew to state that Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after she gave birth? He knew that the marriage was not complete until after consummation.”
Kevin you ask a question and give an answer but, it is not a biblical answer.
NOW KEVIN THE SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU SAID. AND IT IS DANGEROUS TO ADD TO THE SCRIPTURE. Read Revelation 22:18
Nothing in the context of scripture suggests “consummation” as the reason for Joseph waiting until after birth to have sex with Mary.
You are assuming that is the reason.
NEVER ADD TO THE SCRIPTURE!
Now Consider:
The word “consummation” appears several times in scripture. And you have the meaning correct.
But you offer no source for his definition. (I only point this out because you criticized my Wikipedia citation.)
More importantly: Kevin you can offer no scripture in which the word “consummation” refers to the marriage of husband and wife. And, I don’t think you can.
And even if it were true that sex “consummates” marriage it does not follow that sex equates to a marriage. That is a flaw in reasoning.
I was a debater at USC and a Coach for 5 years.
Kevin “A” plus “B” plus “C” equals ABC.
But “C” by itself does not equal ABC.
C completes the sequence ABC but by itself does not equate to the ABC sequence.
IOW; That which completes an event or act does not by itself lead to the totality of the event or act. I dare you to say you don’t get that!! LMBO
Even if it is true that sex completes a marriage, it does not mean that sex equates to a marriage. If that were true, the vows or promises to God have no meaning or significance outside of our own pleasure. Marriage would not be a covenant. All that would need to happen is two people could lay down and have sex and they are married.
Lets continue:
Come on Kevin. You say “Sex is not only a physical act.” Then you dump more scripture as if your hypothesis is supported by them.
A. These passages never mention “sex!”
B. I hope you are not suggesting the word “cleave” or “one flesh” have anything to do with having sex.
Give me one source Kevin.
Even one Scholarly Bible Source that defines “one flesh” or “cleave” having to do with sex will be good. I can’t believe the shot you took at me about my Wikipedia source site, when you offer no sources at all. LOL
Noah Webster’s Dictionary
1. (v. i.) To adhere closely; to stick; to hold fast; to cling.
2. (v. i.) To unite or be united closely in interest or affection; to adhere with strong attachment.
3. (v. i.) To fit; to be adapted; to assimilate.
Kevin, you take the 1 Corinthians scripture way way way “out of context.” You miss what this passage is about and what Paul was trying to say.
Here is a very scholarly bible commentary on 1 Corinthians 6:12-20
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
“And if the soul be united to Christ by faith, the whole man is become a member of his spiritual body…Our bodies have been redeemed from deserved condemnation and hopeless slavery by the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We are to be clean, as vessels fitted for our Master’s use. Being united to Christ as one spirit, and bought with a price of unspeakable value, the believer should consider himself as wholly the Lord’s, by the strongest ties.”
IOW Kevin, if it were not for the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we might still be bound by the results of, and or the penalty of sin. But praise be to God that Jesus Christ paid the price for all of our sins and has washed us whiter than snow.
In summary
A. On the Mary and Joseph sequence of events alone you should abandon this false doctrine. But if you insist on leaning to your own understanding…
B. The ABC analysis should quash your flawed reasoning. C completes ABC but does not equate to ABC. If that is not enough…
C. Even a little research on the origins of “consummation “ would enlighten you to the fact that it is a western and mainly Catholic idea that is not rooted in scripture. (You can “start” with Wikipedia LOL.)
D. The context and intent of the 1 Corinthians verse with the Bible Commentary I offered should “consummate” my correction of what is assuredly a dangerously misleading teaching. It takes a big person to admit he was wrong. In my own mind Kevin, I am an intellectual giant in a valley of mental midgets and yet I still have to admit I am wrong and have been wrong from time to to time. And I have been big enough to admit it from my God given platform (the pulpit).
Kevin, just because your callers are not able to articulate in the brief time you give them why you are wrong, does not mean you are right.
I’m a comedian. I know funny!
The idea that there is “no such thing as premarital sex” is an idea that is so far outside the realm of mainstream Christianity, that it isn’t even funny.
Truthfully It sounds like fodder for womanizers and sex starved college students who would say anything to get a woman to give in to him sexually.
No. It is not funny. I have known too many women emotionally trapped in relationships with middle aged men too set in their ways to commit in marriage, asserting that marriage is “just a piece of paper.”
I know too many young girls, our daughters and sisters being hood-winked, bamboozled, run amuck and lead astray by their own emotions and men who would exploit them by convincing them not to wait for marriage to have sex, only to dump them and move to the next silly woman in many cases leaving them to raise children by themselves.
Marriage is not just a piece of paper. Sex is not a marriage make. The Bible tells us to flee fornication.
But as a comedian for 20 years, I’ll tell you this.
This false doctrine would be funny…if you weren’t for real.
If you still disagree, try to use some scholarly references outside of yourself… this time. LOL.
Love you man!!
Lester Barrie
Pastor: Perfecting Christian Fellowship.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Lester Barrie said:
Hey Kevin;
I posted this. Reply in “public” please.
I am dying to know your reply.
If you reply in “private” I will remember to respect your wish.
Kevin wrote:
“Thus the doctrine is complete that says sex makes you of one flesh and this one flesh joins the two by God and therefore only death will allow the other to be rightfully married to a different party.”
What Kevin says can only be true if the sex is between two virgins with no previous sexual experiences that would have joined them as “one flesh” with another.
What if my first sex partner is already “one flesh” with the first person they had sex with?
If she is not free to be rightfully married to a different party, (read Kevin’s words above) how can I be “one flesh” with her after having sex?
And what if the first person she had sex with was previously joined as “one flesh” by the first person he had sex with?
And what if both people having sex are already “one flesh” with other people they previously had sex with? They cannot rightfully be joined as “one flesh.” (Read Kevin’s words above)
They are both already “one flesh” with others and cannot be rightfully married to another.
Is there anyone who can read this and still agree that Sex joins people as “one flesh” There is NO WAY OUT OF THIS QUANDRY.
It cannot be true. It defies all reasoning and logic and God is not the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33
June 24th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
LES LEWIS said:
Lester Barrie, you have it covered. I cannot add more.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
pbcookie said:
Lester,
Hi, my name is Trevia Baltimore. I hate to be so unprofessional and post this here, but I was afraid it would take a while to hear back from you if I wrote you via e-mail. I know you probably get stuff all the time, but I would like to do a link exchange with you and list you as a sponsor on my website. It sounds major, but it really isn’t. On my F.A.Q. page a sponsor is listed as any individual, company or organization that contributes to the life of this site. Whether it’s by generating traffic (by link exchanges) to increase revenue, setting up an affiliate account, or making a donation. I am only asking for a link exchange. Basically, I post a link to your website on mine and you do the same on yours. It increases traffic to both of our sites, and ranks both higher in search engine. Being that we are offering different services with similar purposes, there would be no competing, and it would benefit both of us.
I have a two-part website that’s currently in progress also. You can look through it at http://www.trevia.wordpress.com or by clicking here. There is a blog portion of the site, as well as an electronic retail store. Right now, my site is hosted by Wordpress, but upon completion, I plan to move everything over to another server and host it myself. The blog is basically a collection of various Christian literary work to inspire and encourage single African American women/mothers who must balance every day life with faith and obedience towards God. It sounds typical, but the concept is very unique. I would love to feature you on the Sponsors page, because your work supports and contributes to my goals. You provide an alternative to secular comedy, and you also clearly have a strong conviction to the Lord based on the thread you created above. Please review the Purpose, Sponsors, and F.A.Q. page for detailed information. I will be awaiting your reply, and I hope to hear from you very soon. I have sent a copy of this message to the e-mail addresses listed on your website with my phone number for a faster response. You may also contact me via Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/pbcookie. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have.
Thank you,
Trevia Baltimore
July 21st, 2010 at 5:17 pm
pbcookie said:
Lester,
Almost forgot. ;-) I am going to post a demonstration info section about you and your company on the Sponsors page so that you can get a general idea of how your information will appear to my readers. You have the option to change/add any information you would like included. Once everything is complete, and I receive a yay or nay, your spot will either be deleted or moved from Coming Soon to the current Sponsors section. You may cancel the link exchange at any time. If either of us for any reason chooses to cancel the link exchange, it can be done at will at any time. I do not need an advanced notice, but I would like to be notified if of your doing so. Please get back to me at your earliest convenience.
Trevia
July 21st, 2010 at 5:33 pm